Danielle ([info]dmitchell1985) wrote,
  • Location: Library
  • Mood: contemplative
  • Music: Printer and the AC

And we're hypocritically together ever after!

Note: Crossposted directly from my IJ


So, I've been thinking about this today and last night about fandom's latest obsession with racism and how it is Evil. (Capital 'e' and everything.) But then I got to thinking about just how hypocritical fandom is at the same time and I had to wonder why do we even take up these causes?

Sometimes it seems like we're emulating everyone's favorite celebrities that pick up a cause to support simply because it's en vogue. This is not to say that there aren't some genuine folks out there, but I find that it sort of burns my biscuit (American biscuit > bun > my buns > my behind) when I see all of these people who've never experienced the type of racism they are speaking so passionately against.

I mean, how would someone who's never been passed over in line for a white person know how that person of color actually feels? Sure, you can guess at it, but that doesn't mean you really understand. And it's not just the whole Nameless Person of Color-Nameless White Person angle either. We can go the Indian caste system route of discussion.

Most of us are familiar with the Untouchables and can guess at what their existence must be like, but I myself will never know what it is to be at the absolute bottom of Society's ladder. This isn't to say that I am Up There, but I can at least walk into most places of business and be served or not have people feel the need to cleanse themselves after coming into contact with me. And of course, I am referring to a wider scale of folk, because I am sure there are some people who would feel this way about me.

So when the issue of all of this touting of Understanding and Acceptance comes up, what weight does it really hold? For a stretch there, everyone seemed to be all over this racism business, but would cry bloody murder if someone ever nudged them to say that something they may have said or written was offensive. Where is the ability to step back and write reflective meta then; when a situation that truly calls for sincere thought has arrived? Where is the moment where the person doesn't simply jump to the defensive and have all of their fangirls swoop in and attack?

From what I've seen thus far, this moment is still being anticipated. At least by me.

So far, on the one occasion where I did have something truly offensive come up in fiction, all I got back basically boiled down to was: "OMG! Leave my friend alone, because we totally aren't racist! And, that was funny!"

Was that what was said exactly? No? But did the comments basically amount to that? Yes.

I wrote one opinion and I stressed that opinions are going to differ. The conversations gained some heat, but I don't remember them exploding into a super nova of wank. Not that I am trying to prod it into such months later. No, I'm finally putting down the thoughts I had when I saw all of that Blog Against Racism flooding my friends lists.

And don't get me wrong, I definitely think that that was the right idea, but we do have to ask ourselves, are we truly being faithful to the swill we're dishing out? Or, are we simply writing about a so-called "hot button" issue to gain fandom notoriety? After all, we all know that the fastest ways to gain popularity in fandom are the following: write something controversial and have it circulate, write Great! pr0n featuring the fandom's top OTP, be completely wanktastic in every single way.

You could also be nice and just make a general contribution to fandom and that'll gain you many a pal, but I said the fastest ways, not the most sane and reliable ones.

So, after all of my babble, I have to wonder in this complex world of relationships that can depend on the balance of "OMG! You post too much boring crap in your journal! *defriends*" and "You write the bestest pr0n eva’! *friends*", how much sincerity really exists out there. I know that it's out there on the web and at those wonderful conventions I always read about, but there is a whole load of fake folks moving within these same circles.

I myself have run into various people that play the part of friend just long enough until they qualify as a BNF and run off to be embraced solely by their fangirls. And no, this is not the cue for anyone to start yet another BNF wank. That's next week, dammit. You've got to leave us something to do. All the while they were filled with "I love you"s and *hugs* and *glomps* aplenty, they were more concerned about how many comments their fics got and pouting about the instances when they didn't receive enough comments to satisfy their growing egos.

Truth be told, I hardly ever receive comments on my fiction. Am I bothered enough by this to write entries about not getting reviews? No. Will I celebrate a pat on the back? Of course! But I don't make a big deal about feedback not being everything and then not following through on not throwing a hissy fit when I don't receive any. So when I see the same things happening with circles that supposedly celebrate differences, be they of opinions or skin color, backtrack on their haughty sermons, I end up disappointed and a little sad that some people will never get it.

And most of all, I find myself wanting to see more people of color actually writing posts about racism and how it has effected them. I love those posts, because I can connect with everything they've said. They actually have an insider's view, like myself, and know what they're talking about, instead of spouting naïve ideals about the way the world really should be.

I know that The Angry Black Woman has written wonderful posts that I nod along with all the way through. Hell, I found one of my favorite Jalabert posts last year (I think) and agreed wholeheartedly. (Her post from this year is excellent and true as well!)

At this point, I usually sigh to myself and move on, because what's the point? Those same people blogging away will simply jump down my throat the moment I tap them and inform them of incorrect information. After all, a person will do what they want, no matter what is said or done to them; since, nothing and no one can tell a person who is convinced that they are right any different.

That thought right there makes me kind of sad.

I need to crosspost this to LJ.

Danielle

Started: 1:09 P.M.

ETA: Apparently, I wasn't clear enough in my post, because I was going with the train of thought in my head, instead of thinking about how everything would be interpretted by someone else.

I should have said that the Blog Against Racism isn't where I saw the majority of the fakeness that got me thinking. It was just what reminded me of the huge SGA race wank a while back. The blogging just happened to come along, too, which definitely made me think that it was just going to be more of the posts I read.

I really should go add this edit to my IJ post.

  • Post a new comment

    Error

    Anonymous comments are disabled in this journal

    Your reply will be screened

    Your IP address will be recorded 

  • 30 comments

[info]silvarbelle

October 7 2007, 19:58:58 UTC 4 years ago

I just don't have TIME to give a damn about someone's skin color. The only thing I care about:

Are you polite to me? Yes? Okay.

Are you trying to kill me? No? Yay-hooray.

Are you hating ME because I happen to be white? "Oh, well" either way.

Are you stupid? No? YAY! That means I can interact with you. Yee!

That's basically my criteria, using the "General You" format. I honestly don't understand WHAT a person's skin color has to do with ANYTHING; I truly don't.

Which is why I consider most of the world STUPID for losing their shit about it.

I'm far too busy and important to worry myself bald over the whole thing. ^_~

*SNUZZLES*

[info]dmitchell1985

October 7 2007, 20:15:50 UTC 4 years ago

*icon club!*

*noddles* I'm glad that someone thinks that way. We can fall into the whole deal around "Those people this" and "Those people that" routinue. It's especially hard when you're raised that way. Hrmm.

Also, *seconds* the killing me part. I've read and saw person talking about how they get scared when a black person walks behind them. I get scared when anyone walks behind me out of nowhere. Violence doesn't stick to one race.

*cuddles*

[info]_ataraxis_

October 8 2007, 03:07:14 UTC 4 years ago

Re: *icon club!*

I happen to agree. Skin color makes not one hell of a difference in how I approach you and treat you and I would hope for the same. I'm glad that even though I grew up in a racist household (yes, my parents are bigots, but sigh, I still love them), I've learned tolerance, patience and acceptance. I honestly believe in the idea "fairness" though I am repeatedly told that the world isn't fair and probably won't be in my lifetime. That's just so sad.

Hugs you. I've never experienced racism, and I can't honestly say I know what it feels like or even empathize, but I can listen and try to understand. I believe in being educated and I hope I always will believe in it.

[info]chvickers

October 9 2007, 07:29:14 UTC 4 years ago

One of the interesting things I found in the racial discussion was that the people who were screaming and hollering the loudest about racism failed to notice their own US-centrism and even their own racism.

In one discussion someone bitterly complained about three fans who didn't know that Blair Sandburg, a character on The Sentinel, was Jewish. After all, his name was indisputably Jewish and could never be anything else, right? When I pointed out that the fans were Swedish, and Sandberg (spelled differently but sounding the same) is a Christian name in parts of Sweden, I was cut down: those fans were still horribly anti-Semitic and anyone who said otherwise was just trying to make excuses. (It later turned out that the character wore a cross in the first season, which means that if he was portrayed as Jewish in later seasons it was likely a retcon.)

But no, if Americans think something is a certain way the rest of us have to bow down because that's the way it is, and thinking otherwise is racist. Because Americans are always right.

[info]angelhunter

October 9 2007, 11:05:14 UTC 4 years ago

Don't you dare to criticise Americans!

Next thing you know you'll wake up and have an invasion army on your doorstep.

[info]dmitchell1985

October 9 2007, 22:49:42 UTC 4 years ago

Strangely enough, this made me laugh. That's not exactly true, but you have to be careful of what you say of all governments. It's not unusual, from what I've heard, for a person to be put under surveillance for spouting off.

Also, pretty icon.

[info]gillyp

October 9 2007, 12:52:54 UTC 4 years ago

Blair... what?

Actually, Sandburg isn't a Jewish name, it *is* Swedish. *Sandberg* is Jewish - something the TS writers were clearly unaware of.

It's an ankh he wears in season one, btw, not a cross, but the point is the same - he's never shown wearing a star of David, he never celebrates Jewish holidays, there is no menorah in the loft, he eats hot dogs and etc. etc....

He is clearly intended to have Jewish origins (an aparently arbitrary decision in episiode 6, Night Train, when he declares he was Bar Mitzvahed - something that sits ill with his hippie past imo, but - letting it go... (o:) but he certainly doesn't celebrate his heritage in any way I can see.

::is glad wasn't in on that discussion:: *G*

[info]caeru_

October 9 2007, 21:44:31 UTC 4 years ago

Re: Blair... what?

*pokes nose in*

Um. Being Swedish myself, I can safely say that I've never seen Sand*burg* used in Sweden. (I even checked the yellow pages) Sand*berg* is fairly common however and basically means sandy hill/mountain. Not really any Jewish connotations at all there.

Not that important really but hey *nitpicks for fun* ;)

[info]gillyp

October 9 2007, 21:56:44 UTC 4 years ago

Re: Blair... what?

Well, I'm not Swedish, but I am half-Jewish -

How about Carl Sandburg?
http://www.nordicway.com/search/Famous%20Swedish%20Americans.htm

Do a search on 'Jewish surnames' you'll find Sandberg consistently listed, but never Sandburg.
http://www.jewishgenealogy.com.ar/warszawa/ancestors_s.html
http://www.jewishgen.org/belarus/surname_list.htm
http://www.family-crests.com/family-crest-coat-of-arms/surnames-7-7/german-jewish-surnames.html
http://www.avotaynu.com/books/DJSGNames.htm
and etc...

I also nitpick for fun *g*

[info]caeru_

4 years ago

[info]kita0610

October 9 2007, 21:53:54 UTC 4 years ago

Wow.

Agenda, much?

[info]danamaree

October 10 2007, 02:22:38 UTC 4 years ago

And this being different from 99% of everyone else in LJ land?

Hmmm.

[info]kita0610

4 years ago

[info]danamaree

4 years ago

[info]dmitchell1985

October 9 2007, 22:44:24 UTC 4 years ago

Wooo! When I first skimmed this comment before I read downward, I thought, "Oh dear god! This is going to make every starchly patriotic person come out of the woodwork! I can't have that wank going on!"

*laughs*

But I definitely see what you mean about some Americans. What you have to understand is that what is shown of America (and every other country out there) isn't what represents the whole lot of us. You would be hard pressed to ever hear me say that everything America does it right. It isn't and I've said so loudly for many a year now. But what can I do when voting really doesn't count for anything and we have a government that is going to do what they damned well please, no matter what its citizens think?

And on the name thing, I see your point. It would have been one thing for them to politely point out the name difference like someone did below, but was another entirely when they apparently snipped at you with anti-Semitic garbage. I've never bought into that ridiculous bullshit and I never will.

[info]louisedennis

October 9 2007, 09:15:01 UTC 4 years ago

Speaking as a white person, I read a lot of thought-provoking stuff during Blog Against Racism week (and leading up to it and on a few bookmarked blogs since). I waded through a lot of nonsense (either self-congratulatory or self-flagellatory) but then the Internet has always been dogged by the signal-to-noise ratio problem.

I didn't post anything but I do think the whole situation gave me a new framework for thinking about how I act and a new set of reference points which were valuable. I'm not sure how differently I act but I'm sure I read situations differently and that I hope that has valuable side-effects.

So I think it was worth doing...

[info]dmitchell1985

October 9 2007, 22:56:19 UTC 4 years ago

Oh, it's definitely worth doing. What I should have included was that there was also a HUGE (I mean crazy HUGE!) racism wank in the SGA fandom about the same thing that helped to get me thinking.

I skimmed some of those posts and read entries by people who'd never even so much as been looked at suspiciously in their lives. They were just going on about the black folks/people of color struggle. I read some of it, but I definitely had to back button out of a lot of it

Hey, I do know that it helps me personally when I have an honest racism discussion. It helps me keep myself in check a bit more on some points (at least outside of the community) and understand the different view points involved in this one area of life.

[info]intheyear2004

October 9 2007, 13:59:08 UTC 4 years ago

"From what I've seen thus far, this moment is still being anticipated. At least by me."

LOL You and me, dear, you and me both. Nothing but hot air circulating in most cases.

[info]dmitchell1985

October 9 2007, 22:58:17 UTC 4 years ago

*noddles* Yeah, but what can 'ya do, but truck along, live your life the best way that you can, and write your own posts thinking a few things over? Especially since the topic doesn't even have to be about racism and I've seen this crazyness.

*shrugs*

[info]roh_wyn

October 9 2007, 21:35:05 UTC 4 years ago

Word. I should just say that skin color is the least relevant of a person's characteristics as far as I'm concerned.

However, I do feel the need to comment on this...mostly because I'm Indian:

I can at least walk into most places of business and be served or not have people feel the need to cleanse themselves after coming into contact with me.

I don't think this sort of thing happens on any regular basis in India (or among Indians in other countries) any more. It's a vestige of a pre-urban society where traditional roles were prescribed by one's caste rather than one's abilities. That's not to say that caste isn't still as big an issue in India as race is in the United States, but some aspects of the caste system are seriously misrepresented, IMO.

[info]dmitchell1985

October 9 2007, 23:01:19 UTC 4 years ago

It really should be, unless you're admiring how nice it is, which I do! ; )

Thanks you SO much for that update of information. I knew that the things I'd picked up had to be a bit dated and I know that the system has loosened up a little bit.

I was also tying in the fact that in some parts of the US today, a black person would have trouble being served in some restaurants. I've had it happen to me, so I know that it has to be happening to someone else.

[info]corbeaun

October 9 2007, 21:52:14 UTC 4 years ago

Long-ish Post on Above

Here from [info]metafandom.

Apparently I missed the Against Racism Blogging Week, but you mentioned several things that made me think and reflect on my own experiences.

True, sometimes it irritates me that a person who doesn't understand the background I come from can off-handedly proclaim how utterly and personally abhorrent s/he finds racism, sexism, etc. One of the most illy-phrased comfort words are: "I understand how you feel." For anyone who has been in an emotional situation and was confronted with those words, you know the gut reaction to that: "No. You can't." And there is truth in that reaction. Afterall, how can anyone, anywhere, possibly know what anyone else feels? It is not too far to say that all experiences are unique to the individual and that there is always something lost in the translation. However, I do NOT believe that precludes a straight, Protestant, Caucasion, healthy male raised in Southhamptonshire from being able to say he is against bigotry and actually understand what that means (though, granted, it might be a bit more difficult).

We do not need to experience the exact same iniquities and outrage in order to be able to say affirmatively that the attitude and mentality that allows us to treat other human beings as less than human is abhorrent and - dare I say it, Evil. There are very few in world who has not suffered some outrage or another simply due to a difference in them that was singled out by the perpetrator (not all of whom are aware of the fact). I believe the majority of the fandom here are women. As a member of what was once call the "Second Sex," being made to feel inferior, being made to feel you have let your whole sex/ethnicity/etc. down whenever you make a professional mistake... The outrage of those experiences is, in a way, shared across groups. This is not, however, to imply that our feelings and sufferings are interchangeable. I will hold resolutely to my position that it is not. But at the same time, there must be a compromise between the uniqueness of experience and human understanding.

And the spoken/written experiences of other people, to me, are a great help in that direction.

You also mentioned a racially-inappropriate joke, and your reaction to it. Not knowing exactly what you are refering to, or even the exact content of the defense, I can only say that the fact that the readers did find it funny mean that in a way thay had already recognized the "racism" or an interpretation of reality at least in which it is possible. I feel a little guilty myself, laughing occasionally at the jokes made at the expense of my ethnicity, say, or my sex. But the thing about stereotypes and racism - something I feel a lot of people dismiss or ignore in our culture of professed "color-blindness" - is that some of these things contain within them the truth. And comedy, afterall, is mostly a matter of realizing reality and then laughing at its absurdity.

I'm not sure I share your opinion that an insider's view, similar to my own, would necessaily mean they're more likely to know what they're talking about. The views might be more realistic in certain areas, yes, but I am acquainted with too many people who are all too conscious of their group-specific plight...and yet cannot understand how bigotry affects someone from a group they do not share. Naive ideals can be tempered with time, as is usually the case. But people who pride themselves as being hard-headed realists are not nearly as understanding or changeable. Or so it's been in my experience.

(continued...)

[info]corbeaun

October 9 2007, 21:52:50 UTC 4 years ago

Re: Long-ish Post on Above

(...continued from above)

In reply to your comment on friending on LJ, I do not think a lack of "sincerity" is the problem. Like any relationship one enters, I think an important part is understanding exactly what both sides expect from each other. The reason why they became friends in the first place - it's a lost easier to pin-down on LJ. Myself, I admit to friending people only for their stories or fic recs, and will and have moved on (i.e. defriended) when they either stopped playing in the fandom I'm interested in or changed the content of their journal to almost entirely RL. I have also done my share of squeeing and glomps and "I love you"s when commenting on a fandom-related post. I think it a bit over-reaching to expect even the frequent commenters on a fandom affiliated f-list to be of the same personal intimacy and loyalty that we expect from the people we first meet face-to-face.

So. This is just a long post on my personal thoughts. Possibly, I am convinced I am right...in which case, no one can change my opinion. ;)

[info]dmitchell1985

October 9 2007, 23:53:17 UTC 4 years ago

Re: Long-ish Post on Above

I have found that a shared insider’s view can help me see a person’s point both clearer and faster. Will I understand someone less because we don’t have a certain something in common? No, not usually. But with that shared experience, they will know what I am talking about right off. I don’t have to interrupt my train of thought to give someone with a shared background the ins and outs of why I felt this way and why exactly something was offensive. They would already know why I don’t want anyone calling me Mammy or a tar baby or talk nonstop about how much they love Blackface. They'd already know that these things aren't going to win you very many Black friends who know what these things refer to.

I suppose that I've been exposed to too much wank where friending and defriending is concerned. I know that interests change and people grow apart, but fandom can seem so shallow at times that I wonder how it is that we don't all choke on the falseness of it all. I love the *glomps* and *hugs* and such, but I've been friends with people that say all of that and will turn around and do something else entirely. Maybe I just can't always pick the best friends, but then who can? I sort of give everyone a chance and we have at it until we can't any longer. I guess.

Again, I rather liked your long post on your thoughts. I am sure that you think that you are right. And in many ways, I understand how you feel. ; P

Oy, I just hope that I answered everything in return. I sort of skipped around to what came to mind first after reading your comment. Also, have you posted this in your journal as an entry? If not, you should. You're more than welcome to link here if you want to explain where the entry came from.

[info]dmitchell1985

October 9 2007, 23:52:30 UTC 4 years ago

Re: Long-ish Post on Above

God! I just loved your comment, not that I didn't love anyone else's. First and foremost, you sort of went on and got out everything that was on your mind at the time, which is ALWAYS what I do when it comes to these things. Be they memes or comment praise or what have you. Thank goodness for another wordy person!

Now, onto your comment. I definitely see the point in someone not directly being effected by something putting in their two cents, but it was a bit trying to see posts (and not just limited to the Blog Against Racism) that went on about things the posters knew absolutely nothing about. There were people (in the SGA race wank) that would post these long, rambling entries about the struggle of black folks and how they would never, never, NEVER do any of that. It was just a bit much and certainly over-the-top.

I made sure to merely scan some of those posts and not comment, because it was bound to become wanky, which it quickly did.

And oh! I am so glad that you brought up the ‘letting your people down’ point. We do say that, because to certain extent, it is true. Black people are and will, in the foreseeable future, continue to be seen a certain way. So, naturally, we have to act a certain way. We have to wear our hair a certain way. We must walk, talk, think, breathe, achieve, and do a number of other things, a certain way. Otherwise, we’d just a bunch of ignorant negroes. And if we’re women, it’s doubly bad, because we’re supposedly not smart or emotionally stable enough to run our own companies or make large decisions.

There is the comparative feeling of being discriminated against. It’s definitely something that I have used personally when I am trying to wrap my head around something, but I certainly don’t go spouting off at the mouth like I am the most learned person on a situation I have never experienced personally.

I get the wording issue with “I understand how you feel.” I have been guilty of saying as much, because it seems like the right thing to say and a way to create a bit of empathy. But just because we say that, doesn’t we can honestly understand where a person is coming from. And yeah, I’ve been on the other end, where I’ve thought that a person would never be able to see where I was coming from.

I know that I have laughed at some inappropriate jokes in my day, but this joke just rubbed me the wrong way. And when I do laugh at a “those negroes” jokes, it’s usually a self-deprecating sort of thing that is in the community. We can laugh at it because we know that it is true and that we have experienced that same situation.

Of course, being open to ideals does make for an easier route of development than a hard-nosed realist, but sometimes we’ve just got to stop kidding ourselves. As much some of us would like everything to be rainbows and sunshine, it’s just not going to happen. I’d say that it’s not going to happen over night, but then that would be a little too idealistic, as someone somewhere will always find something to mess up the rainbow and sunshine good time.

[info]toshfraggle

November 21 2007, 04:25:46 UTC 4 years ago

This concept you're broaching on... not wanting people to think they can possibly put themselves in the "shoes" of someone else, is pretty much dead on what Iris Young writes about in her book Intersecting Voices. She suggests that even though other scholars and philosophers (Benhabib, specifically) think that it's possible to think like another person or put yourself in their place it really isn't.

Her answer to the whole situation is a little strange. She calls it asymettrical reciprocity, and thinks people should just give little bits of themselves, listen to others, and not expect the giving and taking and understanding of identity to happen equally, which also sounds... a bit... like what you're describing you wish was happening in fandom....

[info]dmitchell1985

November 21 2007, 21:12:44 UTC 4 years ago

That's an interesting point. I'll have to look up her book, because I didn't really check around to gauge the waters before I wrote this.

By the way, how did you find me? I also wonder where random comments come from.

[info]toshfraggle

November 22 2007, 08:34:15 UTC 4 years ago

I believe it was through metafandom. I was catching up on back posts.
Create an Account
Forgot your login or password?
Facebook Twitter More login options
English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…